from comments section to the above linked post:
- slightly disappointed in RAY MAY, thought Matt would go into the studies that underlie Peat's suggestions as Peter and Stephan tried slightly doing and seeing if the data support the hypothesis. However, good stuff in citing some of his works for the world to see
Mattverick wrote:
"I've yet to meet anyone in life that is all right or all wrong about anything.
Peat's work is more important than most. That doesn't make it impervious to mistakes or immune to some healthy banter about the contradictions in it."
Agreed.
- I've posted this before, but I think this is the appropriate place to post it again. I'm thinking I've found (well not me, others, but I found their info on it) the answer to the PUFA riddle. Many plant foods high in PUFA are also high in IP6, which chelates iron (and maybe other toxic heavy metals, too?) Animal foods high in PUFA are also low in Neu5GC, which promotes premature ageing. Beef and dairy are very high in Neu5GC. Plant antioxidants solve the rest of the PUFA problem for us, I'm thinking vit E of course, which is high in all (unrefined) high-PUFA plant foods, and supplementary cayenne and turmeric among others. IP6 is a powerful antioxidant in itself. So... Peat is wrong in condemning food for its PUFA content. He is taking one variable and giving it too much importance while ignoring others. So you got Peat with his trembling voice talking about how PUFAs destroying the respiratory metabolism, and you have the fact that the people with the best longevity eat a mostly plant-based rather lowish fat and pretty low protein diet.
- You're right, not all things are created equal. And while I agree that it very well could be possible, I'm not yet totally convinced that *all* PUFA are created equal. And I personally believe that it's no coincidence that naturally PUFA-rich whole foods also contain significant amounts of things like Vit E. Having said that, I rarely eat nuts and only occasionally eat other naturally PUFA-rich whole foods... but not because I consciously avoid them from fear of PUFA. I just don't seem to crave them all that often. So, maybe there's a reason for that. Perhaps the fact that I don't naturally crave those foods is a sign that even PUFA-rich whole foods are, in fact, not *optimal* for humans?? I'm certainly willing to consider that as a possibility. But I'm not quite yet convinced that PUFA-rich whole foods (eaten whole) have the same affect on humans as PUFA oils, like Peat thinks. Mostly because of the gross lack of evidence. All of the science that Peat bases his PUFA conclusions on are studies using un-natural and/or un-whole sources of PUFA, administered in un-natural amounts and in un-natural contexts -- not to mention rats. I'm not saying that I think Peat is wrong. I don't know if he's right or wrong. I just think his PUFA conclusions are based on flawed science. Plus, as others have pointed out, he tends to reference (and interpret?) studies that just don't always support his respective theory. However, that was a really good point about the anti-metabolic "benefit" that hibernating animals get from their high PUFA consumption. And I would be inclined to take that as a reasonable argument in favor of Peat's PUFA conclusions -- more than any PUFA oil studies -- because one would assume that those animals are eating whole food PUFA (and of their own free will). Humans are not 'hibernating' mammals (nor are we rats), but it is a good point to consider. Matt wrote: "When nearly every disease state we know of is being increasingly linked to inflammation, free radical production, and low mitochondrial activity – and the links between each one of the “Big 3” you might call them are clearly negatively impacted by excess polyunsaturated fat intake (which also happens to be the most dramatic dietary change that took place in the 20th century), Peat’s smear campaign against them becomes incredibly valuable and timely." That was another good point. But (lol!)... While it's true that PUFA consumption did indeed increase dramatically, the dramatic change was the man-made PUFA oil boom and the resulting widespread use of them in place of old-fashioned fats (veggie-oil "spreads" instead of butter, etc.). That takes me back to the hard to ignore observation that man-made PUFA oils didn't exist before our dramatic health decline in the US. Yet pork/lard, chicken (skin and all), eggs, oats, and other naturally PUFA-rich whole foods not only existed, pre-20th-century-health-decline, they were consumed liberally, without ill affects. That's tough to explain away. So, to me anyway, it's not so clear cut. I'm just not totally convinced, yet, of the all-PUFA-are-equally-bad-for-you (that's APUFAAEBFY for Johnny :-) conclusions of Peat. And it takes a lot more than just fancy writing ;-)
- Cr8tive- Yeah, cod liver oil is a no go as far as I'm concerned, except maybe in very small amounts. Like 1/2t per day or something. Antonio- Thanks cousin. Most people have no maturity when it comes to such things. Peat is either right about everything or wrong about everything. He is either a hero or a villain. Superman or Lex Luther. No middle ground. I've yet to meet anyone in life that is all right or all wrong about anything. Peat's work is more important than most. That doesn't make it impervious to mistakes or immune to some healthy banter about the contradictions in it. Rob-
- I agree that isolated poly-oils are toxic. But I can't quite make the leap yet, to the notion that whole-foods high in polys are unhealthy. For instance Walter Willet is absolutely adamant that high nut consumption (Lots of polys in them nuts) is associated with LOWER all-cause mortality rates. Antioxidants, polyphenols, etc. in nuts seem protective and perhaps negate polys dark-side. 7th Day Adventists eat lots of nuts and live longer and healthier than most. I even emailed Willet to see what he thought of all the internet chatter about the evils of polys, in light of his suggestion to eat high-poly nuts. He emailed me this back... "The anti omega-6 people are the nuts. There is a huge body of evidence of benefits for these fatty acids...you might find my book, Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy useful on this point, WW"
- Regarding PUFA how does Ray Peat explain why Middle Eastern diets contain a lot of PUFA - seeds and nuts seem to be in everything - and yet I'm not aware that they have high cancer rates. I don't know what their health figures are - does anyone?
Organism as a Whole said... - Hi, Colldén, I agree that a very-low-fat diet is the best way to displace PUFAs. I was on a similar diet. I will say that I was on a 80-10-10 diet. You may be confused. So I will clarify. What I mean is this. I mean that I eat a diet based on a macronutrient ratio of 80-10-10. The ratio is 80% carbs, 10% protein, and 10% fat. For some of you, it may remind you of Doug Graham's diet, which is a vegetarian diet based on the same ratio. But it's not. It's just a ratio, which just matches that vegetarian diet. My diet differs from Doug Draham's diet. I am not vegetarian, and I avoid eating polyunsaturated fatty acids. Not entirely, though. Polyunsaturated fatty acids are found in almost every food, but there are foods which have less PUFAs. What I'm focusing is to eat the foods which contain the least PUFAs. But of course, it's impossible to avoid them 100%, but I'm not worrying if I get 1% or 2% of PUFAs. That being said, I will avoid refined sugar. Why? Because of lots of reasons. One of the reasons is that it lacks nutrients, except sucrose. Another reason is that I didn't feel well when I ate sugar with vegetable oils. It's a fact that sucrose cause lipid peroxidation, which is the last thing you want when your body is already burdened with PUFAs. But I am lenient on fruit and fruit juice. That may be suprising, since it's kinda weird because fruits also contain sugar. So why I'm eating fruit while not eating sugar? Two things. Fruits have vitamin C, which have been shown to repair damaged lipids. Specifically, vitamin C has been shown to repair lipid peroxides. In addition, I have an anecdote in which I feel well if I take a vitamin C supplement. The same happens when I eat lots of fruit. So this is my justification. Basically, I was on that diet for six months. I started that diet in the beginning of 2011. So far, I have experienced no positive symptoms. But sometimes, when I drink liquids with balanced electrolytes, I feel euphoric. I feel calm, sharp, and energetic. My heart rate increases sharply. I breathe better; I breathe with my diaphragm rather than with my chest. And I feel like that my body is growing bigger and taller. It seems like that my body is constantly in an electrolyte deficiency, and only when I get balanced electrolytes, it seems to rush.
